Featured 12GA FH to 700HE--Hairy rifle/shotguns-

Discussion in 'Rifle Talk' started by hubel458, Jul 6, 2008.

  1. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    There are fellas who have and are planning on
    doing hopped up loads and cases in the Greener GP,
    Martini type action. Here is picture of one done couple
    years ago by Aussie guy on NitroExpress forums. They
    need heavy barrel in place of original. It has a rifled
    Pacnor barrel and weighs about 9 lbs. In my measuring an
    action here, they will feed a 3" brass case with a protruding
    slug, like the cast Dixie or the Henson jkt slugs.
    I like the looks of these old classic guns. And they are
    strong enough with 3" RMC brass to get 730gr slug to
    2000 fps...Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  2. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    A fella cast me some 10 and 8ga hard alloy lead slugs.
    10 ga 1050 gr, 8ga 1320gr, fullbore, have large concave
    in the base. Should need little more hollow in the base
    for longer range accuracy. Just hard alloy, not heat
    treated. Nice design, one wide groove, for lube if needed.
    Fired one in NEF 8ga below, with heavy 3.3" plastic kiln case,
    1700 fps, 9000 ft lbs energy. Entered backstop straight
    at 40 ft.Have pics of the new slugs soon.
    The new blue BPI 12ga sabots are out now.Ed

    [​IMG]
     

  3. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    Comparison of slug type and speed for accuracy.
    Comparing better 12ga slugs for rifled and smooth.

    The US-S 570gr slug, with
    locked on base does 2-3" groups at 50 yds
    and about 9" at 100yds in heavy barrel.
    At 2000 fps in smooth bore.

    Now a Dixie 600gr slug in rifled barrel at 1300,
    2-3" at 50yds- about 9" at 100yds;
    BUT Dixie at 2000 2-3" at 50 yds and 6" at 100 yds.
    It seems that slower slugs in rifled barrels losing velocity
    gets below the speed of sound at 100 yds which
    affects accuracy. Of course super heavy bullets, like
    12-1500gr, make it harder to start out fast
    enough to be supsonic at longer ranges.


    This accounts for the guys info I posted earlier about his
    high speed in rifled 20ga killing deer at 160 yds.
    And holding tighter groups at longer ranges.
    He kept velocity above the speed of sound......Ed
     
  4. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    About slugs going from supersonic to subsonic.I understand
    it is that blunt bullets that are in most shotgun slug/sabot loads,
    do not maintain best accuracy when passing back under the speed
    of sound like spire point bullets do.Speed of sound about 1150 fps.

    Now on, FED 239 primer in 8bore and the 4bore cases I have
    with shotgun primers. They almost as strong, from my primer tests
    as the kiln primers from WIN and REM.And they seem to dent easier
    in my 8ga testing than FED209 or the REM kiln ones. I get them from
    the 3.5" 10 and 12ga Fed primed magnum cases. Makes ignition surer.

    Lotta guys want to try Magtech 2.5" 12ga cases. Well they are
    stronger built than any of the old time brass cases I have seen.
    About dollar each, go in same chamber as plastic, same strength.
    The rifle looking cartridge in a slug gun is what some like..
    If you have break action load them with protruding slugs any length.
    If auto or pump in 3.5" chamber load them up to 3.1" overall
    with protruding slug and you can feed from magazine.
    RCBS has sizing dies. Loaded that length about the same power
    as a 3.5" plastic case roll crimped on same slug, magnum load.
    Don't leave air space in Magtech, but use wads and seals
    like in plastic cases..Ed
     
  5. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    I found some 4bore plastic cases, 4 inches long, red
    colored, looking like an oversize 12ga Activ case, They are all
    plastic without a steel insert in the base like Activ cases
    have. No markings. I understand they are Fiocchi.
    They are the size for the 4bores that are about
    .950 inch bore. They are suitable for shot loads of moderate
    pressures. Guys loading them say they stretch out after
    a few loads. And they use about 3 oz shot.
    I will test them with a light buckshot loads
    of nine 45cal buckshot, 140 grains each.
    Total 1260gr, a little less than three ounces.
    In picture are plastic cases with brass ones
    and 3.3" 8ga.Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  6. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    When I made the 16ga FH, shown earlier in this thread,
    I had couple bmg cases that were partly worked down, and not
    yet expanded to 16ga mouth size. With a rim on it bigger than the
    base which was .770". Well, I've had guys ask if I would ever
    have bottlenecked cartridge. This led me to a way to do one.
    I made rim .770, left shoulder diameter, swage case sides straight,
    and expanded neck for 585" size. Cut the case to 3.7" length, and
    we have 585 Hubel Super Magnum, HSM. This will be my only
    bottle necked wildcat. I can make the mag box on the MRC PH
    long to feed case..Good for over 16,000 ft lbs, Regular 14,000 ft lbs.
    Will that put trex in small letters.....Pictured with 505 Gibbs to which
    it has nearly identical larger shape and good side taper for easy
    extraction, with heavy loads.And I can make cases like I do with
    my 700HE.Case hold 250gr ball powder under bullet.
    It'll work in FBW Model L..ED

    [​IMG]
     
  7. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    Shot 4 ga plastic case with 7- 140 gr balls, 980gr total
    1800 fps. Used duplex load- Blue Dot 100gr, - Re17 150gr.
    A card and couple nitro wads under load and card over, glue gunned
    the card in. Shot loadedin two rows of 3 and 7th on bottom
    in recess in the middle of top wad. Red plastic case ok some
    expansion. Just about the limit for an all plastic case.

    Here is picture 0f 585HSM and some other cases.
    Gonna test a few in trusty ole Enfield I shot
    the 700H 3.25 in with extra rear lugs. Change barrel
    lengthen port.It won't do maximum real hotrod
    loads like when I put it in PH later, but it'll
    outrun trex.2nd pic... ED

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  8. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    In the 4ga plastic case a 760 gr ball at 2000 fps
    extracted ok. 3oz #2 shot load at 1500 ok.
    More 8ga stuff, fired a 2 ball, 820gr load at 1600
    with all the RE17 it had room for. We fired 1300
    gr cast full bore 8ga hard slug at 1700. Found a
    guy who can do them. Here is picture of his 10
    and 8ga cast fullbore hard slugs. 2nd picture is the
    585 HSM case sectioned with a competition case
    showing how strong brass is.Ed

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  9. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    We found some 585 hardcast, sized and lubed bullets.
    Works ok in my 585s at high speed. Shown in picture.

    We showed 10ga slugs above, Another easy to do
    10ga slug load is the 10ga wadcups for lead BPI has,
    with a 69cal swaged lead bullet in it that Dixie sells.
    It is hollowbased and 750gr.You can also cast .69-.70
    lead slugs for wadcup use. Also use the same wadcup
    for buckshot. Some are showing interest in 10ga
    due to NEF making them with heavy bull barrels.
    Another experimenter has got a bunch
    of RMC 3.5" brass 10ga cases, and will load and test
    the fullbore 10ga slugs shown above. RMC can do
    them about any time you want.Ed
    [​IMG]
     
  10. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    Here is picture of the 3.5" 20ga brass case in
    FBW falling block. Nice cases by RMC.Shotgun primer.
    Using 395 gr sabot get over 2700 fps. 600gr
    over 2200. Cases take many reloads with
    minimum sizing. One fired 8 times, still good
    and the slower powders get the velocity
    without the hard shock to cases, compared to
    fast shotgun powders. And the hotrod Hastings
    factory loads work in the gun also.

    Guy got new design 8 and 10 ga slugs with
    bigger hollow in the base. 1100gr for 8 and
    900gr for 10. More accurate in smooth bores.
    Will let everyone know when he is ready to
    make a few for shooters.Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  11. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    I like singleshot break actions. I found another brand that will work
    to make heavy barrel 12 and 20 ga FH. By monoblocking in heavy
    barrels. It is the CBC Model SB. It has stock mounted like more
    expensive doubles and O/U. And nice shaped pistol grip stock.
    They have the nice stylish look like the Win 37 and Stevens 94.
    But they are heavier built, just need heavy barrel.
    I going to do a couple by monoblocking in heavy barrels, one 20ga
    and one my 585 HE like I did in the NEF.And they are 50 to 100 bucks.

    That action is a 1/8 inch wider than NEF, has big breach diameter
    like NEF 10/12 gauges. The bearing surfaces on the pivot is .300"
    wider, and pivot block is 1/4" wider. Pivot pin is 1/10" bigger.
    The action is a 1/2 inch taller, and extra diameter at breach end.
    In fact you could build a real hairy 8ga on its wider action, with
    a heavy barrel and a new pivot block welded on.Ed
     
  12. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    More info on doing 20ga 3.5" in break actions. Nice
    to do them in falling blocks, but they aren't available
    for decent price. One choice, heavy barrel NEF 20ga,
    lengthen chamber, but barrels are too short for proper
    burning of large loads. Longer barrel better and helps
    with recoil. And in a break action looks better to me.
    Brass cases from RMC 7 bucks, decent price compared to
    600NE brass at twice that. Many guys want 20s along with
    the bigger. So you put a heavy barrel in a gun like the CBC
    which is low cost and put extra toward the barrel.
    Which is why I started research after getting a CBC,
    as it is about perfect for the 20ga added heavy barrel.
    Or in NEF, a little more. Or other singles, if heavy enough.
    And you still fire factory 3-3.5" slug loads. And 3.5" brass
    20ga will do same as 600NE factory loads, in a gun at
    1/20 the price. That is reason we are looking at monoblocking
    20ga barrels to make heavy strong guns, that can
    get great velocities, less cost.. Like 600gr to 2200 or more.
    Added heavy barrels in right actions will hold all the
    pressure the RMC brass operates at. And remember one
    experimenter has 20ga kills at 160 and 230 yds on deer.ED
     
  13. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    More info on 10 and 8 gauge slugs. The guy got some
    made with deep hollowbase, 10ga 900gr, 8ga 1100gr.
    He will make them for a buck each.
    Bob Bigando in AZ. (bobiano at yahoo.com)
    Good price as they are nice hard shiny slugs.
    For seals for 10 and 8 gauge you can get regular
    card seals and nitro fiber wads, but plastic seals
    will do better, about a 100 fps in the faster loads.
    Plastic seals for 10 ga are at BPI, called - X10X.
    For 8ga I cut bottom seal part off of the 8ga wadcup
    that BPI has. For extended accuracy in smooth bores
    you can screw the seals on to the slugs and that
    will make the overall projectile more front heavy.
    Or better yet screw nitro fiber wads to the slug,
    like the Brenekkes are. Good smoothbore accuracy
    Use slugs with seals on, with slower RE17 that fills
    case so no fiber wads are need.Just seal and slug.ED

    [​IMG]
     
  14. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    I talked about these 12ga jacketed full bore slugs earlier,
    shown below. Well now BPI has something similiar in
    their new catalog. We have tested some and one guy
    got a 3 shot group that is nearly touching at 50 yds
    in a scoped NEF Ultra slug gun. They can go real fast in
    our 3.5 RMC or our real long case.They are hollowpoint
    and fairly streamlined.I fill them with plastic glue for
    better streamlining.Fullbore and no sabots needed.
    Relatively light weight, to lessen recoil.Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  15. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    The 12ga Brenekke slugs with locked on base and the USS-S
    slugs I test have led to other combinations that I've put
    together using different slugs and wads. The object is
    60 yd accurate, economical slugs for reloading smoothbores
    that in the reloading process we can get more power also.
    Like the Lyman cast slugs in thickwall 10ga steel wads,
    with the slug glued in and wad cut off even with top of slug.
    Then with wad cut even, you load and can rollcrimp perfect.
    It makes a real nose heavy combination that is as accurate
    in smoothbores, as the expensive 10ga foster style slugs.
    Another one is the hollowbase 577 soft lead slugs that Dixie
    sells, I put in a thickwall 16ga wad that BPI has. I glue it in
    using Goop, a thick glue that hardwares sell. Epoxy works.
    Another one is 20ga ga thickwall wad with 54 cal hollowbase
    soft lead slugs. All these and others can be loaded for a fifth of
    factory for smoothbores, and be as accurate as foster slugs.
    And our slow powder loads seal good with wadcups.
    Representative one in middlle, 10ga.Slug glued in tight.Ed

    [​IMG]
     
  16. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    Some wonder if only trying for foster slug accuracy at 200 feet
    or 60-70 yds wasn't the best goal in a smooth bore, But if you get it
    at 20% of the cost you've made a big gain. And most deer here are
    killed at 30 yards. And putting slugs inside of thickwall wadcups,
    with corresponding nitro wads under slug to get slug to the front
    of cup, slug glued in, makes them long and a little more accurate than
    foster slugs. Reason is the forcing cone in smoothbores. With the
    long nose, heavy combination of wadcup/slug, the back of the
    wadcup is in case yet while the front gets into the bore, past the
    forcing cone, for a straight start. Little better accuracy. Like the
    accurate US-S smoothbore locked on base slug, that is long.
    The longer the nose heavy slug/sabot combo is, the truer it flies.
    And most of these combinations work in brass cases with
    thick walls like RMC cases. They fit real tight for my cases. Ed
     
  17. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    Penetration with slugs-Had a bunch of
    wood blocks up to 12" through.

    20ga load is a 54 cal 410 gr slug glued in wadcup.
    Gives the same effect as Brenekke with locked on base..
    Good in smoothbore at 50 yds.Goes through
    6" block of wood easy/

    Buckshot load in 4bore, 9 140gr 45cal balls at 1800,
    all zip through 3/4" OSB and keep going.
    In 4bore 760gr steel ball zips through 12" block of wood.
    going over 3200 fps. Wood is dried hard poplar.

    In 10ga 3.5" plastic case, a 900gr hardcast slug at 1800
    fps, through same kind of block easy. This slug I put
    on a screwed on base with plastic seal and wad.
    I've also put plastic seals and fiber wads on 8ga
    slugs to test later..

    12ga 600gr hard slug at 2100 zips through 12"
    wood block like it was putty.In a 3.5" RMC
    case in NEF.

    Anyone wanting one of my loaded 585HSMs to
    collect or look at, let me know. 750gr
    slug in this at 2800 in Enfield test gun.
    Soon have barrel in PH and put the real
    speed to it. About 33-3400.

    Will soon have the heavy 20 ga barrel mono-blocked
    into the 12ga barrel setup on the CBC break action.
    Make a nice looking gun. Also going to put the 8ga heavy
    barrel I had in Enfield for testing into falling block
    built like the 4 bore one.Maybe done by summer.
    Will be in one piece stock like 4bore.Ed
     
  18. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    Finding real slow powders that works with shotgun primers,
    without starter powder. We found RE-17 and surplus 7383.
    To recap faster rifle powders we use -VV110,IMR 4759,4227..

    On the thread we've written about real slow powders like
    H-BMG we've used with a starter powder, IE 15gr of Blue dot,
    and H-BMG in amounts from 150 gr to 230gr in 3.5 and 3.85
    inch brass cases. And 3.5 " plastic cases. 860-1040 gr slugs.
    Tested in NEF with long heavy barrel.

    We finally got some RE-50,a really slow powder like H-BMG.
    It works with a real magnum shotgun primer with heavy slugs,
    860 gr on up, in 3.5" RMC brass, 3.5" plastic and our long
    brass case. I used 239 Fed primers. Lighter slugs
    only give squib loads.RE-50 Is a powder made like RE-17
    with the deterrant all through the grain of the powder,
    rather than all on the surface of the grains, so it will ignite
    easier, to get the initial combustion started.

    In brass case used 240gr with 860gr slug, 1950 fps
    and 220gr with 1040gr slug, 1750.
    In 3.5" plastic 860gr slug with 180gr RE-50, 1500 plus.
    Now these velocities aren't earth shattering as powder is real
    slow, but cases don't expand, not even plastic case base cup.
    And no starter powder. Nice thing is just fill cases
    leaving room for slug and seal and no worries about
    to high of peak pressures with heavy slugs
    or cases expanding to stick.

    Now to get 239 primers get Fed 12ga long red
    3.5" primed cases from BPI. I used Fed cases,and took out
    primers and used in other plastic and the brass cases.
    Some guys trying to free up 239 primers for us reloaders.
    Federal puts them in 3.5" mag 12ga loads and 10ga cases.

    Elsewhere it was reported someone may do a 16ga sabot.
    Also a guy got huge antlered buck with hotrod 20ga. Ed
     
  19. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    I have a way to compare primers without powder and slugs,
    for a lot of my experimenting. I use a short 24"barrel 10ga.
    The barrel being shorter I can see the sparks and flame.
    I fire off the primers in case with no powder/slugs.

    I have just tested to see if magnum FED Fusion and Triple 7
    inline muzzleloading primers were as strong as FED 239.
    Just the two brands to test in the 10ga to compare flame,
    sparks and bang, and they were not as good as the 209
    Remington STS ones I like. They only put a few sparks out
    of the barrel.The REM 209 STS and Fed 209 M had 3" fire out the
    barrel and the Fed 239 had about 5-6" out the barrel. And 8ga
    Rem and Win kiln case hotrod primers 8" plus....

    Previous post I mention trying to start H-BMG slow powder with
    8ga kiln primers without success. Which is why we figured out
    using a starter powder like 15gr Blue Dot. Then it works great
    with any shotgun primer. Guys here when they see misfires with
    shotgun primers and H-BMG only, and the see starter powder loads
    go off in our big 12ga case like a tank cannon, they are
    flabbergasted at the difference.ED
     
  20. hubel458

    hubel458 Super Member

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    I mentioned in the threads earlier a 16GA FH case
    I made from bmg brass. Then I put it in a 16ga
    Stevens 94 break action by lengthening chamber
    for the 3.5" case. I kept speed and pressures down
    as the regular barrel on the gun had a thin muzzle.
    Now I found a thick heavy 16ga 32" alloy tube and
    I had extra Enfield test action, with the port
    opened for longer cases. I turned it 1.1" at the
    muzzle. Nice and heavy. It does a 630gr 16ga
    'Greg S' slug 2400 and 385 gr Lightfield 16ga slug
    to 3000, without the bottom 2/3 of the case
    having to be resized. With RE-17. I have these cases
    setup for shotgun primers.The Lightfield has it own
    seal on the locked on base and for the 630 gr use
    a BPGS type of seal and Flex type cushion over powder.. Ed